NILES REFUSES TO PUT OUT FIRE ??????????????????????????????

[yfdgricker]

Here is a link to the City of Niles homepage and the Niles Fire Department...

http://thecityofniles.com/firedept.htm

[Missing the point]

You have all missed the point. Mutual Aid was not a consideration. Niles was dispatched to this fire by the State Highway Patrol. Niles got to the scene and made a decision to stand by and let property burn without doing anything. They are now in a CYA mode because the public has exploded on them and they don't even know what their procedures are. They are afraid of being sued , the entire country now knows what they are about.

[jim trk 1]

I guess I can kind of see the pont, but still, if you roll up on a working fire no matter who's district it is, should you not make an attack?  I guess if your not clear on your SOP's you would stand by.  I can't imagine the looks on the neighbors faces, or the homeowners.   If I was in charge, I'd still fight the fire and worry about the problems later.   Hopefully it has a good result.

[yfdgricker]

Here is another article from today's Youngstown Vindicator (1/22/2004)...



Official details what led to mix-up

The city now has a verbal mutual-aid agreement with the township.

By SHERRI L. SHAULIS

VINDICATOR TRUMBULL STAFF

NILES — Investigators say they are not looking to assign blame, but do want to find ways to ensure a mix-up that occurred during a house fire last week never happens again.

Tom Telego, the city's emergency management coordinator, told council during Wednesday's meeting that limited communication between the Niles and Weathersfield fire departments, confusion about where the house was actually located and the lack of a mutual-aid agreement between the city and township were contributing factors in the mix-up.

At the heart of the matter is whether firefighters from the city's department acted accordingly when they were mistakenly dispatched to a fire at 2782 Robbins Ave., which is not in the city but in McKinley Heights, a portion of Weathersfield Township.

Didn't fight fire

Crews from the city have come under fire in the last week for not fighting the blaze, but rather waiting until volunteers from Weathersfield's department arrived. City firefighters made sure no one was trapped in the home when they arrived shortly after 1 p.m., but after determining the home was outside the city's limits, they waited until crews from the other department arrived.

Weathersfield crews were on the scene within a few minutes, and were able to contain the fire to a bedroom and a portion of the attic.

Since the township and city had no mutual-aid agreement, city firefighters were not legally obligated to fight the fire.

Telego noted during his statement that the mutual-aid situation has since changed.

"As of today, we have a verbal mutual-aid agreement with Weathersfield," he said. "And we hope to establish one with every community who borders us."

Telego, Mayor Ralph A. Infante, Safety Director Maurice Guarino and Fire Chief Charles Semple have been investigating the incident since last Friday. No formal complaint was filed against the city or the fire department, however.

While the investigation is not yet complete, Telego said, initial interviews with all departments involved show there were "breakdowns in vital communications," especially between the two fire departments.

He also noted that officials are using the situation as an impetus to review the department's standard operating procedure and make revisions and updates as they see fit.

Infante told council that the incident has cast a bad light on the department, a situation that he sees as unfortunate and unnecessary.

"This is one of the best departments in the state," he said. "And I will stick through with that to the end of the investigation."

Telego said the team plans to complete the investigation and release a full report to council and the public by the beginning of next week.

slshaulis@vindy.com

[Anonymous]

Here are some things to think about...
It is a shame for the owner that Niles couldn't put out that fire - but that's what the policy evidently was - because if it had been different, I think we would have heard about it. And I think Weathersfield knew that was the policy because they aren't talking. If anyone thinks they wanted this publicity, then they are not thinking - but until you have walked in that fire capt's shoes, I think we should hold our criticism of him and those under him. It's easy to say what you would have done or what you think should have been done but you weren't there -
And... if you think the tribune story is the gospel truth than you are niave.
I commend the capt. for making sure no one was injured or trapped - if the NFD had taken a little extra time and determined that the call was out of the city before they left (even though their PD told them it was in according to Cleveland ch , they would have made sure Weathersfield had been notified but Weathersfield wouldn't have gotten the call any sooner and wouldn't have arrived there any sooner! ...and if someone had been trapped, that could have possibly been fatal.
Should Niles have committed to the fire and then called Weathersfield for mutual aid to cover the city? That was obviously not an option. They were already waiting for them.
Would the city have taken care of a firefighter that got hurt on a fire out of the jurisdiction that he did not have permission to fight?
Would the township have paid for his injuries? who knows?
Its easy now to say you would worry about that later.
Could Niles have made any difference (other than visually) by having one of their trucks attack the fire? I doubt they have 4 guys on every truck and I doubt that they are going to let just 2 or 3 guys make entry without any support.
Could they have just "squirted some water and made it look good" - probably but would that have made any real difference?
I never saw where Weathersfield requested any assistance - I think there should be some scrutiny there as well. Why has the township been silent? Everyone is so quick to bash Niles...almost with glee it seems to me. That just doesn't seem right.

Who's to blame? well - that is a simple question that does not have a simple answer if you are really honest about it. Do politics come into it - at some level it does - is that good? not always. Is that reality? - ALWAYS. Especially if your job could be on the line.
 - Risk your career (there are so many jobs around here), with no lives in danger, the first due station practically across the street and you are told they are on their way and a you have a city that you are responsible for...
Some would say "YEAH , I would do that." But do they? Do they not go to their regualr job (if they are volunteer) so they can stay at the station in case their FD has a call to make sure of a timely response? No. They have to earn a living for their family. That is important, isn't it.
There are more layers to this than a huge wedding cake, I think.
What is commendable, is that the communities have gotten together --- and NOT blamed each other for the past and hopefully can eventually rebuild their respective reputations.
Is it a black eye? - YES - it looked bad - theres no getting around that - and all the Niles firemen will have to live with it unfortunately -  and with the internet, it is the talk of firehouses from Australia to England.
Were the Niles firemen wrong?        - I won't say that!
Would I have done it differently? maybe...  
but then I am looking back with hindsight as all of you are!
Just some things to think about...

[Niles is to BLAME !]

Once again I fell that there are those of you out there who have no clue as to what has happened with this incident. The reason it has gotten world wide attention is because it is something that is so very rare, and something that is so bad it has made firefighters sick to their core all over the country.

Niles DID NOTHING! NADA! ZIP! They are career firefighters who DID NOTHING
How can Weathersfield have any blame put on them? THEY WERE NOT CALLED?  Niles received the call NOT WEATHERSFIELD. Don’t you dare try to spin this on someone else? I commend Weathersfield for not saying anything, they have been more professional then the Niles Fire Department I will tell you that. Blind loyalty to anyone is very dangerous. There are some stupid, stupid people out there who will never get it. To say this Officer should be commended is INSANE!

My final word on this is in the end a person lost their home, because a fire department chose not to fight a fire they were called to. Spin it anyway you want Niles brought shame to themselves all over the world. You know it, I know it…….and they know it.

[Anonymous]

Hey, Niles is to blame, it's obvious you don't work for a professional department. Tell ya what - if you're actually employed anywhere, go tell your boss that you think his rules are stupid, and you're not going to follow them any more. See where that gets you. Then come back here and talk about disregarding orders.

And why did it take Weathersfield 20 minutes to arrive on scene? Is that a normal response time for them?? Oh that's right - they weren't called! Then how did they know to show up at all?  (BTW - an exclamation point looks like this ! and a question mark looks like this ?  They're not interchangable.)

[GA_Dave]

Typical of most government entities, those in charge of the "investigation" are the ones who are most likely responsible for the problem in the first place!  It's like letting the cat babysit the mouse!
   I hear lots of excuses being given, but I don't buy into them.  First, this idea of not commiting Niles' apparatus to this fire just in case another fire occurs in Niles is total BS.  What if the fire was IN Niles and they commited?  Wouldn't they be in the same situation?   No equipment to send to another fire, IF one occurs.  This WAS a working fire and Niles was already on scene.  Not a valid reason in my book.
   "But what about if a Niles FF gets injured?"  Those firefighters were responding and under the lawful direction of a superior officer, REGARDLESS of where it was.  It is the responsibility of the City of Niles to cover them.  It's not like they took the apparatus out on their own, looking for a fire to fight.   They were SENT.  The City might not like it, but they ARE responsible.  So again, not a valid excuse.
   "What took the Wethersfield Twp. firefighters so long?"  That's a good question and one that no one has yet answered.  How long DID it take them?  When did they actually get dispatched and when did they arrive?  "Several minutes" doesn't really tell us much.  I imagine that the person who placed the original 911 call on the cell phone thought it took "several minutes" for Niles to arrive too.  
   Knowing that there was a working fire in front of him, knowing that the proper fire department was "several minutes" away, knowing the rate at which fire spreads, and knowing that he had the equipment and manpower available to make a difference, that Captain FAILED to act in a way that any REASONABLE PERSON would act.  IF, in fact, this was due to a policy of the City or the Department, he is justified, but they are not.  If that is the case, then Niles deserves all the ridicule they are getting.

[Anonymous]

seems like the above is on target
i know capt randy ciminero and i have only the highest regard for him
he acted according the mafia-type control exercised by his superiors
now they are trying to make it look like an oops! sorry about that
but its too late
niles is/was in the dark ages as is warren
it will take a few disasters to help these pre-historic dinosaurs to realize that they should have retired eons ago and let people that have an inkling of what MODERN firefighting is all about take charge and make RESPONSIBLE policy -based decesions

[yfdgricker]

This was from the WKBN TV27/FOX 62 Web Site...

Trumbull County
Won't Cross The Line

(1/21/04) An investigation has been launched into the controversy surrounding a fire last week in Trumbull County.

Last Thursday, dispatchers incorrectly sent Niles fire fighters to the house fire. When they arrived, they learned the fire was just outside city limits in Weathersfield Township, and watched as the house burned.

Now, Niles City officials want to know if their fire department acted appropriately in choosing not to fight the fire.

The city's mayor has said the city would've been left unprotected if their crew hooked up to hydrants against policy.

[yfdgricker]

From the WYTV Channel 33 Web Site...

Fire Jurisdiction Law Review
Niles
Associated Press

Niles officials say they want to make sure the
fire department never again chooses not to fight a fire because the
blaze is outside city limits.

Last week, firefighters made sure no one was trapped then
watched from their trucks for several minutes as a house burned in
bordering Weathersfield Township.

Niles fire Captain Randy Ciminero (SIM-ah-nero) said the city
didn't have a mutual aid agreement with Weathersfield.
Yesterday, emergency management coordinator said the cities have
since approved a mutual aid agreement. He says Niles wants to
establish one with every neighboring community.

Niles officials continue their investigation into last week's
decision.

But Mayor Ralph A-Infante says he thinks the incident has
unfairly cast a bad light on the department.

[Anonymous]

I agree with the Niles mayor that many have been unfair to the Niles Dept. and I know that nothing I say will change their mind. They obviously don't care about the facts - and if you think the Tribune has reported the FACTS as they actually happened then you must be naive.
Unfortunately, I feel many have taken this opportunity to bash Niles in order to feather their nest a little and show how much "better" they and there department are. It sure is easy to say what you would have done from where you are - but if you had been in that captain's seat, who knows...
I find it hard to believe that anyone would think that this is what the Niles Dept. wanted to do. Actually, I know that is not the case.
We should maybe try to understand why this happened before we start bashing. The next big controversy could involve you and your dept.

[Anonymous]

I agree about the tribune paper and
I will say this  - that the title of this topic seems out of line also.
If niles had been asked to help and declined then I think this title would be appropriate but as it seems to me the title should read "Niles Firefighters hampered by city policy from putting out fire"
Just as the weather or frozen hydrants or other factors hamper fire suppression, here it seems that a policy or established procedure was a factor. Very unfortunate for all involved.

[Anonymous]

i will defend randy ciminero to the death because i know that boy well and he is par excellence and niles is FORTUNATE to have the likes of that boy on board
i am CYNICAL
i dont think "Chief" semple is worth 2 cents from what i've seen of him and i wish he had retired long ago
niles needs some fresh blood
i HOPE randy will be the chief soon but he may not since he earns more now
i distrust the sincerity of any "investigation"by the chief, director or mayor
they will spin and sugarcoat their flawed policy vto great personal advantage be assured
they will say it was an honest mistake
wish it were but i prefer a darker reason
niles hated mckinley hts since circa 1982 during a 3rd alarm with fatality where mckinley responded automatically and somehow fouled up niles fire operations
ever since niles has been an island
no help us and we no help you...PERIOD
no more
for better or worse things MUST be modified
too bad warren is too dumb to adopt automatic aid with howland and others
more greedy politics
warren sells fire services via annexation
you want us you must pay
or suffer the delay of volley responses
down the road i expect within 5-10 years that these area depts will get with it but hang on until then

[yfdgricker]

From the WYTV Channel 33 Web Site...

Niles Fire Probe Complete
Niles
Cheri Colelli

The internal investigation is done and the Niles Fire Department will now fight fires in neighboring communities.

Earlier in January, the Niles Department rushed to a house fire on Robbins Avenue, only to find it was in Weathersfield. Department policy said not to fight it.

Mayor Ralph Infante says mutual aid agreements will be worked out with all surrounding townships and cities.

There was also a problem with communications between Niles and Weathersfield on that call. Infante says they will work to make sure all neighboring departments have the equipment to be able to communicate directly during emergency situations.